Leahey.org | Skepticism and Productivity - Latest Comments in Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Sun, 26 Oct 2008 03:35:51 -0000

And just wondering, what are you, 33?

You know what the difference between your 33 years and my 23 years is? I spent mine trying to gather accurate information. You spent yours trying to back up beliefs you had already subscribed to, and never considering the consequences.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Sun, 26 Oct 2008 03:33:33 -0000

I actually have done a little research of my own....er...well...YOUR kind of research, and what I turned up is no surprise. You like to use this "I'm a parent and nobody who isn't could possibly understand" argument on a lot of message boards. They entertained it no more than I have.

I'm going to try my best not to correct you grammatically, and just look at what you are intending to say in this comment.

Kindly do not speak for "parents" in the general. You don't care. Thats great. You have your little pseudo-truth and you're clutching on to it with both hands. The fact of the matter is parents, that is, parents who actually care about doing what is best for their children DO care. Do they care about my posts specifically? Of course not, I'm not saying they should/do. They do, however, care that when they actually look in vaccination efficacy and safety, they find a chorus of comments on just how ridiculous your side of the debate (if you could even call it that) is.

You know, I've read about people like you in the abstract. I've read about logical fallacies, but I've never actually met someone who spews so many in one breath. How selfish can I be to say I have researched the topic as much as any parent? I suppose it depends on where you're putting the emphasis there. If you mean ANY parent, as in, is there any parent out there that has done more research than I have? Of course. If you're implying that every parent inherently, just by being a parent, has done more research than I have...uhh....kindly just stop replying.

I try to make it a policy to not debate people who have serious intellectual deficits. I'm not trying to be insulting, but your arguments are so flawed, and so just...unbelievably nonsensical, I do wonder.

And I'm sorry, I know I said I'd try not to, but "wannabee"? Really? Is that like a bee that really tries hard? Speaking on general terms about your grammar, if you expect anyone to take you seriously, you really should take a remedial writing course. Its not "ect", its "etc", as in etcetera.

Moving on, I don't have to ignore any information that I don't agree with. You don't provide any information. That makes it easy.

What doctors and lectures have I attended? Well. We'll start with Dr. Steven Novella, Director of General Neurology at Yale. How about Dr. Mark Crislip, over at Quackcast? How long have I been researching the issue? About 3 years. I wrote a research essay on the topic, and continued to follow developments thereafter. What studies have most influenced me? How about every damn one that has yet been published by any well-established organization? That good enough for you?

Again, you go on about how "no one cares what [I] think" because I don't have a child. Stop speaking in generalities when you actually mean YOU don't care. Most people are not as simpleminded and, frankly, unintelligent as you. Looking around at posts you've done elsewhere, like JerseyShoreMoms, this is your shtick. I haven't quite pegged you yet, as to why you're so hung-up on thinking that being a parent is a requirement for doing any research. I'm thinking you define yourself as a parent, because you don't have much of anything else to identify yourself as. Am I right?

I understand you want to do whats best, and spread this conspiratorial anti-vaccination thinking as far and wide as you possibly can, but the truth is while you're big in heart, you aren't so big in brains.

I still don't get what you're even saying with regards to my blogs/pictures. I link right from my profile on these comments. Are you seriously thinking you somehow "discovered" some secret I was trying to hide? Yeah. Woo. You found me out.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

amie — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:05:39 -0000

you have repeatedly chosen to omit all the websites which correct the misinformation you have written which none of which were any type of antivaccination forum. they were from regional news sources.

but that is all besides the point. you are a 22 year old child. you are not a parent. you are not a medical doctor. what dont you get? parents dont care about what you think because it isnt a personal issue for you, and will never be one until you have your own children. i didnt bother writing you last night because i care about vaccine choice or not. the fact is, your "research" couldnt be 1 one hundreth of the research parents do- those for or against vaccines. how selfish can one be to say they have researched a subject as much as any parent, let alone those who gather information for their child with a disability or illness.

look andrew, i get it. you are a wannabee writer, who likes to twist things around, ignore certain key points, and ignore any information which you dont agree with. but you also have a problem with not reading correctly-
"You spend your entire paragraph prattling on about how much you love your child."
i didnt go on and on about how I love MY child. i am telling you, one day, YOU will love YOUR child like that, and when that day comes, you will "get it". you can sit and think and plan and make decisions now on what you will do as a parent, but those things mean nothing until you hold your own child. PARENTS read the cdc warning from the inserts of some vaccines which have a death listed as a very rare, but possible side effect. parents worry about that tiny possibility. those without children, like yourself, are seeing it as too rare to worry about. when you are a parent, you will understand the magnitude of the word "death" when referring to your child no matter what the context.

"But to infer that anyone else has any less knowledge of the subject than you, simply because they themselves don't have children, is absolutely hilarious"
what books have your read, what lectures have you gone to, what doctors, specialists, and pharmacuetical companies have you spoken with. how long have you been researching this issue. what other resources are you finding information from. what does you pediatrician think(this one doesnt pertain to you)? how in depth have you researched the vaccination safety and effectiveness tests? what studies have most influenced you. have you looked into the economic value of vaccines in relation to the economy and healthcare system as a whole? have you spoke with parents, doctors, and specialists of and researched illnesses such as autism, asthma, allergies, neurological disorders, ect ect ect? have you done anything else other than google?

no andrew, no one cares what you think because without a child, and being a 22 yr old child yourself, your words are without meaning. when people say something along the lines "if it were me, i would have gotten out of the stock market 6 months ago". everyone gets quiet and thinks to themselves "but he doesnt even play the stock market, he has no money to invest". you andrew have no investment in this issue. you can play from the sidelines all you want, but the parents are the ones putting their life investment up.

and your writings, bios, and pictures are all \over the internet, no typing away required. have a good life andrew, hopefully you will never have to be searching for your child's "boogieman".

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 00:40:13 -0000

That's ironic, Amie, I find it horrible you sat behind your little computer desk, pecking away your keyboard, your only credentials the fact that you procreated. You act as if you have independent thoughts, and yet all I hear from you are parroted and misinformed, semi-literate responses that could be cut and paste from these anti-vaccinationist propaganda websites.

How are I? How dare I....look at the evidence and make a conclusion? Indeed. You spend your entire paragraph prattling on about how much you love your child. Congratulations. No one claimed you didn't. But to infer that anyone else has any less knowledge of the subject than you, simply because they themselves don't have children, is absolutely hilarious. It illustrates exactly what sort of person I'm dealing with here. Big on heart, short on brains. You, much like Jenny McCarthy, feel that the simple fact of having a child yourself, somehow eclipses all the evidence and bears your claim out for you. I have news for you, it doesn't. You all love to try to get over the fact that you have NO REAL EVIDENCE by playing the pity card. It's so rough, if you only knew, and on and on. Yeah, I'm sure it is rough. But if you really and truly cared about what was wrong with your child, you'd want real answers. Not feel-good answers, not simple answers. Real answers.

I'm a horrible person, really? Why? Because I actually spent the time to look at the evidence, and point out the completely fallacious nature of your entire movements argument? Let me tell you something Amie, if I add to the voice of reason on the internet, and in any way lead to just one person actually ignoring people like you and getting their children vaccinated, I will have done more good than any one on your side (Mother or not). I don't much care that you "did a lot of research". You are advocating a position that could potentially lead to the deaths of the children of other uninformed parents. So excuse me while I don't mince words and dance around the issues to spare your delicate sensibilities. You, being uninformed and uneducated on the issue, and yet continuing to propagate your misleading nonsense, are a horrible person. You are contributing to a movement that is causing untold damage; that we won't even begin to be able to realize the full extent of for years to come.

Furthermore, when and if I am ever a parent, the furthest thing from my mind will be the insane ramblings of (I say it again) a bunch of people looking for boogeymen in vaccines, in the environment, or in whatever else. I will, putting aside my own ego, do what is best for my child and get them vaccinated. I won't toss them to the whims of whatever disease chooses to grab a hold of them, just to remove myself from the potential list of causes for whatever conditions they might have been born with.

I really adore comments from people like you, because they really illustrate how baseless the whole anti-vaccinationist argument is. You have done far more to prove my point, than anything I could have ever said in the original post. If you had some real evidence, some study, some factual claims, you would be discussing those. Not resorting to petty straw-man arguments and ad hominem attacks. You, Amie, are everything that is wrong with your entire movement, summed up in one little package, and posting on my site.

Just as a side note, Ginacillen? What are you talking about?

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

amie — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 23:54:49 -0000

ya know, i find it horrible that you sat behind your little computer desk at mommy and daddys house, pretending to know anything about vaccines or the possible dangers, actually implying you were a parent yourself by saying things like "my child". going back and forth to your little ginacillen(how cute), acting like the two of you have independent thoughts, at least other than where you kids will hang out at double trouble park.

how dare you. what real life do you know? you have absolutely no idea what it is like to have a baby you created enter this world. a child you immediately fall in love with so quickly and instantly, that you would die for in a second upon meeting them. this child depends on you for everything. never in your life have you wanted to make the right decisions. you have no idea what responsibility comes with parenthood, and you are a horrible person to sit at your keyboard questioning parents who have spent years researching, telling them they are looking for boogiemen to blame for their child's diagnosis.

one day you will be a parent. you will sit there and hold your baby and "get it". then you will think back to this little blog that is your daydreaming attempt to make you feel like a real writer. you will think back to the one topic that got all the attention. the one that actually recieved comments. you will think back on this, and look at your baby, and feel the most guilt you have ever felt in your life. you will think of how much you love your baby, and think of how much all of us who responded to your posts desperately cared for our children. you will think of those with disabled children who read your posts making thier situation be nothing more than an ego boost for yourself, or to impress your girlfriend.

i know at this point in your life, you will dismiss me, but im telling you when you hold your own baby and think of this, you will hate yourself, and wish you could go back and apologize to everyone whose devastating life, or overwhelming parental fears you trivialized. you will wish you werent so immature and arrogant, and could take it back.

and if when you hold your baby and think of this, you dont feel that, you dont feel that guilt, well then all i can say is im sorry for your own child and their future, and im not referring to vaccinations.

then again, although i would never wish anything towards someones child, there is always irony, and you may one day find yourself on the other end of your self-serving comments.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:49:59 -0000

Also, in regards to your other post, I'm not sure if you understand what a peer reviewed journal is. You can publish an article without original research.

If he actually had something to say -- and wasn't just looking to make a quick buck by cashing in on a gullible public -- he could have gone any number of routes other than the "buy my book" one.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:42:51 -0000

How about children with suppressed immune systems? Why do they have to be exposed to the viruses that your unvaccinated children will carry?

I understand that your child has had developmental issues, and that is an incredibly tough thing to deal with. I also understand that the natural response is to start looking for someone or something to blame. It can't just be chance. If you can explain it, if you can rationalize it down to a nice simple cause like a shot he shouldn't have gotten, it seems easier to handle.

Look up the logical fallacy of "post hoc ergo propter hoc".

The bottom line is, there is *no* evidence that points to that conclusion. So you can dance around all day talking about a right to choose. You're advocating choice, great, but you're supply bogus evidence to justify why vaccination should not be mandatory.

Furthermore, you began this entire "war of words" defending a rally that was organized by an organization that is either being intellectually dishonest, or is somehow living in a news bubble. They continue to claim that vaccines cause autism.

I'm sorry if I seem callus, but if you do a small amount of research in to the massive cost of lives these baseless vaccination fears have caused (start with http://www.comminit.com/en/nod..., you might see why I don't take lightly an organization such as NJCVC continuing to propagate false rumors.

So if you want t continue to seek out a boogeyman for your child's developmental issues, go right ahead. The facts don't back up your, or the NJCVC's claims, but its a free country. If it makes you feel better, go waste money supporting organizations such as these, and time attending rallies such as the one in Trenton.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Maria — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:57:17 -0000

You say "the risks are overblown". But, when it happens to your child or to your family member, the risks are not overblown. It all gets back to vaccine consent. Since there are risks associated with vaccines, parents should have the right to consent.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Maria — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:44:48 -0000

I see you are now putting words in my mouth. I never said you were "uneducated". It apears you have too much education, and not eough "real world" experience. Fear not, Andrew! I am in no need of your convincing. I live in the real world. Dr. Sears doesn't have to submit his findings because there is nothing to submit! He has done no studies on aluminum safety. He was merely saying he couldn't find that ANYONE at the FDA has performed such studies. So, what data is there that he's supposed to submit in a journal to his peers? Furthermore, he has the right to write a book based on his medical knowledge, personal experiences, and recommendations. It's called, "The American Dream". As for my massive conspiracy thinking, hmmm . . . that's an interesting comment. All I have done is monitored my son's development after he received 3 vaccines administered over 7 months . . . noticed he missed several important development milestones & developed sensory issues . . . then decided to research vaccine ingredients - reaching the conclusion that I would like to have vaccine choice and consent as a parent. Boy, that is some massive conspiracy thinking. What planet do you live on again? BTW, you've never submitted any evidence for me to counter! You must have me confused with someone else - maybe Amie. I know she has countered your evidence, time and time again with actual website addresses. But, you have chosen not to post her entire posting. Again, you are conroling the conversation (the data) making it look all one sided (your side). You and me . . . we've been in a war of words basically . . . a little cat fight among the girls!

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

momo — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 16:24:16 -0000

"The bottom line is, studies have been done, they have found no adverse effects to vaccination. "

The CDC begs to differ:
Update: Vaccine Side Effects, Adverse Reactions, Contraindications, and Precautions Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/previe...

Chock full of substantiated adverse effects to vaccination.

Vaccination also does not always equal immunization. I spoke with a pediatrician who told me that he had to receive rounds of vaccinations, was tested and there were no antibodies so he had to go through them again. How many people are regularly tested to make sure they are still (or were ever) "immune"? BTW, do you have all YOUR shots and boosters? Do you know if you're immune? If not, YOU could be putting others "at risk."

"Anti-vaccinationists simply respond with allegations of big pharma "funding" the studies."

I'd not like to ignore the validity of disclosure and conflicts of interest. If indeed there are no correlations between vaccination and autism, "Big Pharma" as it were would not need to BE funding studies. A company who stands to make billions of dollars off of any product should always use independent research studies.

"Because I've heard all the claims you've made here time and time again, and with even a cursory amount of research, they are quite easily disproven."

I noticed that any site someone brings to the discussion will be labelled as somehow not valid, while you expect that all of your links are indisputable, inclusing a link to Wikipedia (which anyone can log in and edit at will which is why Wikipedia is not always acceptable as a source for serious discussions and which I refrain from using as a source for my college work.) Your acceptance or denial of incoming linked information seems arbitrary.

The CDC (personally I don't find the CDC the best source of information) is still conducting tests concerning vaccines. If we are all so absolutely sure that vaccines are safe (and even package inserts say they are not 100% safe), why is the CDC still studying these issues?
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/auti...

If you believe in vaccination, do you also advocate for the development of a screening process to determine which of the population should be exposed to the components of any given vaccine before it is administered? Even the package inserts for the vaccines themselves state that there conditions under which the vaccine should not be administered, and reactions to the vaccine which then contraindicate further exposure.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 03:31:11 -0000

Thanks for your insightful remarks.

What I do for a living is immaterial, I didn't produce any of the studies that I've linked to, or referenced.

Being a parent, or furthermore being a parent that "research[ed] the issue for [my] child's sake" doesn't effect the evidence I've given one bit.

I admire your fervence, but it really has no bearing on whether or not the facts back up your claims. They don't.

I am not affiliated with, nor have I ever received any "hefty sums" from any pharmaceutical company.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 03:26:46 -0000

Nope, your ill-conceived ramblings most certainly didn't hit a nerve. Just would like to limit the comments from lunatics to this site. Googling my name will turn up all the information and pictures your little heart desires.

The aluminum in aluminum hydroxide (or alhydrogel) is most certainly the same.

http://www.webmd.com/parenting...

You're creating a false dichotomy, why does he have to either write his book or submit his findings to a peer-reviewed journal? Why can't he do both?

I realize now theres no convincing you. You have chosen your way of thinking and thats the end of that. People with the kind of massive conspiracy thinking that you subscribe to cannot be dissuaded, its an unfalsifiable loop. If I produce a study, "big pharma" funded it. If a doctor says vaccines are safe, hes in the pocket of "big pharma".

I really adore the fact that you're claiming I'm nothing more than an uneducated 12 or (as you so liberally gave me) 18 year old, and the simple fact is you've been unable to counter any of the evidence I produced with anything more than anecdotes and witty little references to time wasting.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Maria — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:59:26 -0000

Wow . . . You took down your link to your pictures of you on your bike . . . your girlfriend Gina . . . Washington D.C. Did I hit a nerve?

Aluminum (as in aluminum cans) is not the same as Aluminum hydroxide - which is what is in vaccines. Oh, and look what I found at an insurance company website: "It is not known whether aluminum hydroxide will harm an nursing baby. Do not take this medication without first talking to your doctor if you are breast-feeding a baby.". So, it's not safe for a breast-feeding baby, but it's safe to inject into the bloodstream of infants.

Maybe Dr. Sears' motivations is to educate the public, educate new mothers, educate parents - everyday people who do not know where to go to read medical journals. And, almost ALL of Dr. Sears' peers are brain washed and paid off by Big Pharma - expensive dinners, golf outings, weekends in VT, broadway shows in NYC. So, why would he waste his time with his peers who already know everything? Now, I'm wondering why I'm wasting my time with you because you already know everything. Come on Andrew, how old are you? If you're not 12, I'll give you 18 - but nothing more.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Ross — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:00:20 -0000

Andrew, I'm very curious to know what you do for a living? Do you work in the health field? Are you a parent? Have you gone through the process of researching this issue for your child's sake?

Most of us who are so fervent in our belief that parents need choice in New Jersey have children who were injured by vaccines. We would like to spare other parents the heartbreak we have gone through because we followed our doctors' recommendations without fully understanding the risks involved. Consider people who don't do their research as misled. You may not like our views, but boy, we are doing our research.

Are you? Or is your missions simply to discredit us because you are being paid a hefty sum by some pharmaceutical company?

Lay your cards on the table, boy, because inquiring minds would like to know.

Most respectfully, Ross

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 01:07:04 -0000

And perhaps you should reread the article, this is little more than a comment on brand choice within vaccines. So, if the excerpt is to be believed, and if you fear aluminum toxicity, opt for the vaccines that don't contain aluminum. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Furthermore, he cites absolutely no sources. And the article appears to be little more than an advertisement for his book. This is not an excerpt from a peer-reviewed journal, its a clip from a book on Oprah's book list.

Ever wonder what his motivations might be? Why sell a book? Why not just do the research and submit it to a journal that is peer reviewed?

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:58:11 -0000

A registered dietitian. That is, a bachelors degree in diatetics. Alrighty.
What, pray tell, is a CCN?
You most definitely did link to quacks in substantiating your argument.

I'm not sure where to start with your, just, biting, scathing indictment. 12
year old? Obviously, I'm not. However I fail to see how it would matter if I
was. The facts are the facts.

But I guess you don't let those get in your way, and logic obviously isn't
your strong suit.

Just, fyi, it is the aluminum they make aluminum cans from.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Maria — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:50:44 -0000

I just saw your pics and I can't believe I am conversing with a child!! For your information, I'm not going to a quack. I've seeked the advice of a RD, CCN - double licensed healthcare practicioner. I'm done. The whole point of your website is to make people look foolish and argue with them. I get it! You GOT me!! I can't believe I have been arguing with a 12 yr old, cyber geek.

Well, cyber geek - don't forget to read Dr. Sear's article and educate yourself on Aluminum - not the aluminum you drink your sodas out of.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:36:29 -0000

Are you seriously quoting a webpage with this:

http://fourwinds10.com/siterun...

As their "mission" statement?

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:31:56 -0000

You linked to a homeopathic website? Guh.

Please. If you want to help your children, stop with this nonsense. Stop believing everything you read, stop with the pseudoscience. Do some real research, check your sources. Homeopathy is nonsense. Categorically and across the board.

You got a toxicity report done by a real medical practitioner? Or did you get it performed by an "alternative" (read: quack) "healer".

If you are really using these kinds of sources to decide how to best care for your children, I am honestly afraid for them.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Maria — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:31:40 -0000

Oh Andrew . . . I forgot to give you these links that discuss aluminum toxicity.
http://www.mothering.com/artic...

http://www.fourwinds10.com/sit...

Per Dr. Sears, who is pro-vaccination (but extremely cautious), "As a medical doctor, my first instinct was to worry that these aluminum levels far exceed what may be safe for babies. My second instinct was to assume that the issue had been properly researched, and that studies had been done on healthy infants to determine their ability to rapidly excrete aluminum. My third instinct was to search for these studies. So far, I have found none. ... I can find no references in FDA documents that show that using aluminum in vaccines has been tested and found to be safe."

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Maria — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:11:02 -0000

Andrew, I’m not going to debate you on the studies performed or whether anti-freeze is an ingredient because I am not an expert in those areas. What bothers me about your response to me is you are basically saying that your vaccinated child is more important than my unvaccinated child. What tires me about this issue is we should be talking about protecting ALL children! Your vaccinated, supposedly safe child does not trump mine! Let’s get away from the “autism-vaccine” link for a minute. What studies need to look at is ALL toxicity – environment, pesticides, mercury, aluminum, vaccines, etc – all of it! My personal belief is that the disorders we are seeing in our children (autism, auto-immune diseases, ADHD, food allergies, asthma, ADD – and the list goes on) are due to a number of factors – genetics, toxicity from the environment, compromised immune systems, and the inability to efficiently excrete toxins. I believe my last statement is the catalyst and “too many vaccines injected over a small period of time” is the trigger – which would explain why some kids are affected after their vaccinations and some kids are not. Read this link about how vaccines are made and about autoimmune disease. http://www.billgrayhomeopathy....

Now, speaking from personal experience, I have the perfect “vaccinated vs. non-vaccinated” study being conducted under my roof as I speak! My oldest son started receiving his vaccinations at 5 months old; I did one at a time – eventually he received 2 doses of IPV, 2 doses of Hib, and 3 doses of DTaP. My son never had a reaction or a fever, but he did miss some minor milestones – clapping, waving, mimicking expressions of others; he was non-verbal – only said dada; and he developed some sound and sensory issues – for example, when people clapped at church, he got really afraid and I had to calm him down. He also banged his head on everything when he was angry. At 22 months, I had him evaluated by Early Intervention, and they said his expressive language was on a 15 month level. Now, this is a child who received vaccinations starting at 5 months old, on a much slower schedule than what is recommended by the CDC, and fewer shots than what is recommended by the CDC schedule – and he still developed a speech delay. My younger son (14 months younger) never received vaccinations because he always had a runny nose, cough, or an ear infection at his well visits. To make a long story short, he had an allergy to dairy that I had to diagnose on my own without the assistance from my pediatrician because he did not believe in food allergies. Then, I decided to get a toxic element report on both of my sons – they both had some mercury and lead toxicity, but both were highly toxic in aluminum and arsenic. They both were deficient in essential elements (like B12, selenium, manganese – to name a few) that are needed to bind toxins and safely dispose of them from the body. Both of my sons are toxic, however one is vaccinated and the other isn’t. Hmmm . . . my younger son is extremely toxic in aluminum just like my older son, but he wasn’t vaccinated. I then read an article that baby formula has traces of aluminum. Hmmm . . . maybe my story further supports my earlier statement “that toxins in our environment is the catalyst and vaccines pull the trigger”. So, if I had followed the CDC recommended vaccine schedule, there is a high probability that both of my sons would be somewhere on the autism spectrum or they would have some form of developmental delay. My younger, unvaccinated son met all his milestones and does not have a speech delay at all. Due to what is happening under my roof, I have decided to stop all vaccinations. On top of all of this, I’m now finding out that I have a family history of celiac disease (I’m more than 99% sure I’m celiac) and I just found out I have auto immune thyroid disease – as well as inflammatory bowel disease. Now these are 3 more risk factors that would make my sons more vulnerable to the toxins in vaccines.

Andrew, I’m sharing this with you because change needs to be made! We are years and years away in finding out what exactly causes autism and all these other disorders. Right now, we need change because our kids are toxic. Parents in NJ need choice and should be allowed to consent to certain vaccines or opt out all together. NJ also needs to question the current CDC mandated schedule. There is no need to inject so many vaccines into our children at such a young age – especially when liver function is very immature! You need a fully functioning liver to eliminate this junk, and infant’s livers are not fully mature yet. Let’s slow things down, push out some of the vaccines that are not life threatening (Hep B, Hep A. Rotateq, flu, chicken pox, MMR), and foster the growth and build the immune systems of our children. No 2 children are alike, and it is criminal that the CDC and State of NJ are inflicting the same shots on all kids over a short period of time – regardless of the state of their immune system, their family history, whether the child has the ability to properly excrete toxins, or possible mitochondria (sp?) defect. We parents know our children much better than The State of NJ! I need choice to protect my kids because I already know what is happening in their tiny bodies, due to the biochemistry tests I ordered for them. I’m educated, I’m involved, and I’m a darn good mother – I deserve to have consent on any medical intervention that carries risk. End of story!

And Andrew . . . please take your eyeball off that so called picture of yours. That’s skeeving (sp?) me out! You look like a pedophile!!

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:02:27 -0000

As you said, whole-cell hasn't been used since 2002. Even prior to that, 1:140,000?

I gave you the statistic for diptheria mortality. 5-10%.

They are not "both a gamble". One is a gamble, the other is a statistically insignificant risk.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:59:24 -0000

I'm sorry Amie, I really have a lot of trouble understanding what you're saying.

I don't know where you're getting all this inside information as to what I didn't know. I didn't know about the *incorrect* facts you provided regarding the pharmaceutical companies in NJ. Who said I didn't know NJs prevalence rate? I was the one who supplied the correct information. NJ is not the highest.

The same goes for boys being more effected. At what point did I say I was unaware of that fact? I said in my original entry that it was interesting that they chose to ONLY look at boys for their statistic, and I hypothesized that the rate amongst girls was probably not as impressive as the "155%" claim they went with.

I misspoke on the MMR vaccine containing thimerasol, you're most correct. You should understand that it is rather difficult to be in my position. I'm attempting to juggle about 10 different conversations, all making off-the-wall claims, some of which I've heard before and some I haven't. I think I'm allowed an error.

If you honestly believe that the organization RUNNING the rally, which I have linked to, is not attempting to link autism and vaccines....I really don't know what to tell you. You obviously have not read their site.

Look, I know you're a true believer. I'm not going to change your mind, I realize that. I'm not trying. Just don't expect me to allow you to clutter up this thread with comments that are just rehashing what others have already said, and I've already debunked/provided a source against.

You have your outlet to spread your misinformation.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Jackie — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:53:02 -0000

This is from the actual PDR:

Whole-cell DTP vaccine has been associated with acute encephalopathy. 21 In the National Childhood Encephalopathy Study (NCES), a large, case-control study in England, children 2 to 35 months of age with serious, acute neurologic disorders, such as encephalopathy or complicated convulsion(s), were more likely to have received DTP vaccine in the 7 days preceding onset than their age-matched controls. Among children presumed to be neurologically normal before entering the study, the relative risk (estimated by odds ratio) of a neurologic illness occurring within the 7-day period following receipt of DTP dose, compared to children not receiving DTP vaccine in the 7-day period before onset of their illness, was 3.3 (p<0.001). The attributable risk for all neurologic events was estimated to be 1:140,000 doses of DTP vaccine administered. In this study, a causal relationship between receipt of DTP vaccine and permanent neurologic injury was suggested. 1,37 - 40

Granted, they have now switched to DTaP vaccine. How many children lost their lives before the switch was made? How many children will lose their lives now until professionals realize that something may be wrong? I don't pretend to have the answers, but neither should you. The bottom line is vaccinating and not vaccinated are both a gamble.

Re: Trenton, NJ Anti-Vaccination Rally

Andrew — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:46:35 -0000

Look for a study in 2003 done by (I believe) Dr. Kathleen Neuzil. As I'm not the "reigning expert on vaccines" I can't produce a study to match every piece of criteria it takes to convince you, I didn't claim I could.

As I said, the risks are completely overblown. I'm sorry to hear that happened to someone in your family. I'm sorry to say, you knowing one of the statistically minute number of people (0.0007%) who have had such a reaction to a vaccine doesn't make for any more of a compelling argument.

Compare 0.0007% negative reactions to the vaccine to the Diphtheria fatality rate (which is just one of the 3 diseases) which is estimated to be anywhere between 5 and 10%.

I never claimed to be the "reigning expert on vaccines". I'm quoting you real numbers, I've linked to real studies, and I've answered all of the comments on here with logical arguments based on the facts. You've brought me an anecdote and a condescending attitude, but no facts or citations.